John, I am one of those people you are talking about. I cannot see any reason which justifies removing spawns from the parents. I think anyone who makes a practice of this is in the hobby for all the wrong reasons - money. I have no doubts the fish do suffer and can cause, I am sure the bond of a pair of breeding cichlids to be broken. This subject keeps coming up on this list which makes me think that many wish the females to breed like 'battery hens' and in my opinion this is all wrong. Helen >in a few instances I do "steal" the wigglers away from the parents to insure I'm going to get alot of fry. I know many people don't like doing what I sometimes do, but sometimes I feel it's necessary or I wouldn't do it. This doesn't mean the fish suffer at all. John< ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!