The "symptoms" you described sound like classic physiological signs of an ammonia problem. However, with the amount of water changes you are doing that should not be the case. You did not metion the type of water conditioner you are using. I have had excellent results with Amquel and Novaqua although others on the list have " dissed" them. Your water probably is treated with chloramine, a heavy form of ammonium and chlorine, and your current water treatment may not be neutralizing the chloramine. Check ammonia levels in your tap and tank. Hope this helps. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!