I don't like to speculate on diseases when I can't see the fish. Jeez, I hate to speculate on them when I can see the fish. My first thought though was 'the gravel'. then, as I read of your substrate, I became suspicious. Way back, I had a 20 gallon with that general type of substrate. I also had the same basic fish symptoms, although I had sudden deaths too. Test kits gave me nothing, but when I tore down the tank, the unaffected fish never developed any rot. It's pure anecdote, but. I think in that case, I did something wrong in preparing a type of tank that works for a lot of plant people. Then again, healthy panduros and the nastiest apisto I've ever kept, atahualpa (sunsets)... You sure it's a disease and not slow murder? Getting nibbled to death might give that look too. Panduro and atahualpa are not fish I'd keep with Dicrossus. I've seen tail-less atahualpa - when they first came in I had ten in a 33 gallon, and they were just about headless after the first morning in each other's company. Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!