Re: [AGA-Contest] Now my own comments

["Roger Miller" <roger@spinn.net>]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:20:16 -0800 (PST), Erik Olson wrote
> OK, this I can easily comment on:
> 
> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Roger Miller wrote:
> 
> > It's difficult for the judges to make comments on every entry, the comments
> > they make are probably never adequate to explain their placement, the 
> > comments
> > are often off-base and frequently wrong.  Generally, it is impossible to 
> > avoid
> > mistakes in comments when the comments are based entirely on photographs.
> 
> I dunno about this.  I found many of the comments to be spot-on this 
> year.

I did not and few (*not* none) of the people I've read discussing it on
various forums have found them to be useful.  I can extend that statement back
 to cover comments made for several years, including the year when I judged
and Phil was the one lambasting the results.
 
> > Unfortunately, for all entrants except the top three in each category the
> > contest provides no result or information other than judge's comments.  The
> > AGA contest would be a better contest if we de-emphasized the judge's 
> > comments
> > and provided the contestants with more information about the placement of
> > their entries.
> 
> ...and of course this goes completely against all the requests I was 
> getting from people to make sure Amano commented on every tank.

I wonder how many people in retrospect found his comments very useful.
 
> It has been my experience that beyond the first few placings, the 
> lower ones are all noise.  I consider it quite pretentious how ADA's 
> contest ranks everyone all the way to #500.

It sounds to me like even the rankings of the top finishers -- including best
of show -- are pretty noisy.  That isn't based so much on my experience as it
is from comments by judges last year and this year.  I think you just have to
accept that there are disagreements and handle the results at face value.
 
> > I suggest that judge's comments should be solicited only after the
> > contest placements are known and that only the top few finishers in each
> > category should receive comments.  At a minimum AGA should tell all of the
> > contestants where their entry finished in the rankings.  It would be even
> > better if AGA provided a summary of the scores by category.
> 
> This also flies counter to my experience.  By leaving comments after 
> the placements are known, each judge is now "tainted" by the other 
> scores and less likely to leave comments reflective of their own 
> experience, and more about the "group-think".  I also disagree on 
> reporting of raw scores, because the raw scores are just used by the 
> judges to generate their placings.

I'm fine with the comments being tainted by group-think.  The contest results
*are* group think and if the comments don't reflect the contest results then
it sends very confusing mixed signals to the entrants.  It also turns
individual judges into targets of unfair criticism.

I don't suggest reporting raw scores.  I suggested reporting rankings and
preferably a *summary* of scores.

I think if the judges are told up front that their scores will be reported in
some form to the contestants that they may become more consistent in their
scoring.

> Something else to consider here.  In fish shows, dog shows, and 
> undoubtably zillions of other cases, the judges are never required 
> to disclose ANYTHING.  THe more that is disclosed, I find the more 
> angry people get.  If we disclose the raw scores, now contestants 
> can get ticked off because a judge gave them a particular low raw score.

In zillions of other cases the contestants are given detailed feedback on
their performance.  It can be done either way.  I think the contest is more
valuable to the entrants if we give them more feedback.


Roger Miller
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