Mike No need to shut your mouth, you made so very "real" points about some people. I too am glad that most of us "Dwarf People" are a bit more careful of what we do. I'm an ACA member, figured if I keep as many cichlids as I do, I should be a member. When I first joined it I thought it stood for African Cichlid Association. Then i saw that some westies were showing up in the TP and found out it meant All Cichlids from African. Guess I shouldn't bash the mightly ACA. They only keep screwing up my membership and no membership chairperson will take the gumption to correct things, Mark Barnett included ( the present membership chair) This is my 3rd time around with this group and you know the saying 3 strikes and you're out. Now as for the ASG, I've never joined that group. I do get their exchanges as part of my aquarium club exchanging newsletters with them. I wish they would get on their horse and do something about getting the dates of the apisto gram up to date. Even if it meant just saying the hell with back dates, here's the new issue with todays date on it. Volume # and Issue # don't have to change but the dates do. I never know when I read something in there if its the new one or from over a year ago. I know you're part of that group Mike, what's up with that. Well I guess it MY turn to get off the Soapbox. Sorry for carrying on about this, but I figured this forum was good for exchanging ideas about the hobby as well as the fish. Thanks all for listening. John I promise to be quiet for a while ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!