Several list members suggested that parents might have eaten fry. That was my suspicion the first time and so this time I put a dozen or so in a breeding trap, leaving the rest with the parents. All had gone the next morning. So either the babies somehow got out of the trap (which has no holes I can find) or something else killed them. I ruled out any drastic water condition changes as it seemed odd that twice in a row I had a cloud of healthy fry that all go at about the same stage of development. Starvation seems the most likely bet. This is what I will focus on the next time round. Has anyone tried mushing up daphnia to feed fry? Will they pick freshly dead stuff out of the water column? Or even mushed up flake food? David Sanchez asked about water conditions. I've run out of GH test, but it should be about 2. KH is unreadable. I don't have conductivity meters and other stuff. I would say that the water conditions ought to be better than for any other fish I've kept as I done more changes than were necessary to breed other apistos like aggazzi, mcmasteri, and keyholes. It could still be the water of course. Cheers ------------------------------------------------------------ from John McCrone ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com.