One interesting point that i hope everyone who is keeping and breeding or attempting to breed rams is, Tom noted that the water in both settings were acidic and very warm, both over 30C.... I've found if you really want to breed Rams, keep the water warm.... they love it!! I also envy you Tom for the chance to see Rams in their natural habitat. Maybe someday i'll hit the lottery and go collecting in south america. John ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com.