Re: Evolution in a microcosm

["Jody" <fishbox@bellsouth.net>]

I see Natural Selection and Evolution as two mutually exclusive ideas.  Yes,
the strongest may survive, but unless it gives birth to a different species
(which has never been documented or observed) then it has nothing to do with
Evolution.  Rams beget rams : )

If the parents ate the eggs, which often happens as we all know, it wouldn't
be considered a "strength".  In fact, that same beta-female would likely eat
her own eggs, too.  Maybe she just likes caviar.  In the wild, food is
scarce for fish, so they have the instinct to eat food whenever and where
ever they see it.

-Jody


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Baker" <anthony_w_baker@hotmail.com>
To: <apisto@listbox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: Evolution in a microcosm


> Well, it could be interpreted that way if I had more data to back it up!
:-)
> Much of the research I did in school would back up the behaviors that I
> observed to fit in with some models of selection.  In a lower animal like
> fish, kin selection is probably something beyond their reach.
>
> I would tend toward thinking the little beta-female was hungry too, if I
> hadn't just watched her eat a dozen blackworms!  That and the fact that
> every time she got near the nest and tried to get to the eggs, the other
> Rams gave her quite a beating!  And I don't think it could have been any
> fish -- both the male and alpha-female did a great job of keeping the
other
> fish and the ghost shrimp away from the spawning pit -- the problem was
they
> chased the beta-female so much and then got distracted from the eggs while
> she went back and ate them... It was very complex behavior.
>
> As for hatching an amphibian -- if we were around 350-400 million years
ago,
> we might have seen a bit of the transition from fish to frog!
>
> -Tony
>
>
> >From: Jody <fishbox@bellsouth.net>
> >Reply-To: apisto@listbox.com
> >To: apisto@listbox.com
> >Subject: Re: Evolution in a microcosm
> >Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:18:47 -0500
> >
> >Tony,
> >Good luck with your rams, but I don't think that was really evolution at
> >work - just a hungry fish.  And it could have been any fish.  Now if the
> >rams were able to hatch an amphibian, that would be different.
Personally,
> >I don't think that will ever or has ever happened.  Anyway, I hope you
get
> >a successful spawn!
> >-Jody
> >
> > >
> > > From: "Anthony Baker" <anthony_w_baker@hotmail.com>
> > > Date: 2002/03/12 Tue AM 10:05:14 EST
> > > To: apisto@listbox.com
> > > CC: bakera506@earthlink.net
> > > Subject: Evolution in a microcosm
> > >
> > > So, last night I witnessed Evolution at work in my 29G plant tank.
The
> >tank
> > > contains a trio of Blue Rams, a couple black neons, 3 molly fry, 3
> >ottos, 2
> > > SAEs and ~12 ghost shrimp, bunch of red ramshorn snails and MTS.
> >Because
> > > this is a aquascaped tank, I didn't have any "normal" spawning
> >locations,
> > > just a few artistically placed rocks and driftwood.
> > >
> > > The tank stats are:
> > > KH / GH: 3-4/6
> > > CO2: 25-35ppm
> > > pH: 6.65-6.70
> > > NO3 - ~5-10 (added weekly for plants)
> > > PO4 - ~0.5
> > > Weekly water changes.
> > > Temp ~81F
> > >
> > > Anyhow, after I fed the fish their allotment of live blackworms, I
moved
> >on
> > > to feed my other tanks.  I returned 15 minutes later, and sure enough,
> >the
> > > male and the "alpha" female were dancing around a little depression in
> >the
> > > substrate (flourite) hidden behind some tall plants.  I peered in and
> >could
> > > see ~75-100 eggs (not bad for a tiny female) right on the flourite.
The
> > > male was busy fanning the eggs.  The interesting part: the "beta"
> >female,
> > > who lately has been chased by both the a-female and the male, kept
> >coming up
> > > to the pit and appeared to "entice" the male away from the eggs.
Then,
> >she
> > > would circle around the whole tank while being pursued by either the
> >male or
> > > both the male and a-female.  A few times, the b-female would circle
back
> >to
> > > the pit and quickly gobble down a few eggs!  The male would chase her
> >away
> > > again, and the whole thing would start again! The male also began
> >chasing
> > > the a-female around, allowing the beta-female even more snack time!
> > >
> > > Evolution at work!  The b-female was clearly eating the eggs to
increase
> >her
> > > fitness level and simultaneously reducing the chance of the a-female
> > > spreading her genes!  Very interesting!  Another consideration is that
> >it is
> > > quite likely that the trio are genetically related -- probably even
> >siblings
> > > -- as I got them from the LFS.  In many higher animals, genetically
> >related
> > > conspecifics often take _some_ responsibility for care of young -- eg.
> > > "aunt" chimps often take turns caring for baby chimps or watching
> >juveniles
> > > while the mother gets some relaxation.  Apparently not so with Rams!
> > >
> > > I also think I was pretty lucky to get two true females and one
male --
> >I
> > > was a bit worried after reading about the lack of females being
imported
> > > from the Far East.  Perhaps the trio was even from a local breeder.
> > >
> > > Well, an hour later, I checked back on the tank and noticed that the
> >male
> > > and alpha-female were doing a "spawning dance" on the other side of
the
> >tank
> > > near the driftwood.  The female's ovipositor was still very extended
and
> > > both had full coloration. The beta-female was no where in sight, and
it
> > > looked like most of the eggs were gone.  So, I am hoping they do
better
> >on
> > > the next round!
> > >
> > > I am not prepared space-wise to dedicate a tank to breed these fish,
but
> > > wouldn't mind having a successful spawn in their present tank.  If
> >anyone
> > > has suggestions that might help, I would appreciate it.  I could pull
> >out
> > > the other female, but think that she might be next in line to lay
eggs!
> >I
> > > added a small clay tray (for flower pots) with some fine sand in it,
so
> > > maybe the Rams will like that more?
> > >
> > > TIA,
> > > Tony
> > > BTW - My new pair of A. trifasciata is settling in nicely and my new
> >male
> > > double-red aggie is adjusting to his new home... Still seems a bit
> >ragged,
> > > but hopefully some good food will fix him up soon!
> > >
> > >
> > >
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