Greg, I would like to both touch on your question and ask a question at the same time. Open for anyone to answer. Now we did talk about this female and you said you know it's not a sleeper. I thought I had some for sure females but, they had the same too much color thing for me to be convinced they were females. I had moved them over to another tank to breed with a different male but, before I got the male in I found out my female was really a male. I am saying that getting the sleeper-if it is that-male away from the his group and putting him by himself seemed to let him relax and become a man. Not really what I wanted but, at least now I knew. My other question for you and any other smart Apisto Persons. In cacatuoides does having black pelvics make them a for sure female? Thanks JerryB ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the Apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com.