I had promised myself that I wouldn't continue this argument but then I read this and thought that there IS clear evidence for evolution, not in the fossil record, but in our current world. Have a look at AIDS, it is so bad at reproducing itself that it evolves phenomenally quickly, so quickly in fact, that our scientists can't keep up with it. Same with the common cold and many others. Read "Almost Like a Whale" and it'll continue with the topic. No more from me on this. C:-)lin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jody" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:33:59 -0600 To: <email@example.com> Subject: Re: discussion Re: Actually, this discussion has been rather tame so far (let's keep it that Re: way). If you want to see some raunchy behavior, just go over to the Re: talkorigins newsgroup. Re: Re: The gripe I have is that evolution is taught as fact, when in actuality Re: there are so many holes in the theory that it just doesn't adhere well Re: together. The shortcomings of the theory are never taught to the students, Re: and therefore, they are not allowed to come to their own conclusions. Re: Documentaries abound on TV showing men dressed in ape suits that are Re: supposed to convince the watcher that the whole thing is true. But, you may Re: say, what about all those ape fossils? Henry Gee, chief science writer for Re: Nature (and an evolutionist), has pointed out that all the evidence for Re: human evolution between about 10 and 5 million years ago "can be fit into a Re: small box." According to Gee, the conventional picture of human evolution as Re: lines of ancestry and descent is "a completely human invention created after Re: the fact, shaped to accord with human prejudices." Putting it even more Re: bluntly, Gee wrote in 1999: "To take a line of fossils and claim that they Re: represent a lineage is not a scientific hypothesis that can be tested, but Re: an assertion that carries the same validity as a bedtime story - amusing, Re: perhaps even instructive, but not scientific." I realize that this Re: statement by Gee does not end the argument, but it summarizes the point that Re: the fossils alone don't prove anything, especially when there are so few. Re: And he is an evolutionist! Re: Re: The ape-to-man problem is at the end of the evolutionary tree, but there is Re: bigger problem at the beginning of it - the origin of life. Although he is Re: a microbiologist and not a molecular biologist, I'm sure Brian is familiar Re: with the issues. Basically, the whole process depends on chance. Chance Re: that simple molecules combine to form complex molecules, chance that complex Re: molecules combine to form simple organic molecules (amino acids), chance Re: that simple organic molecules (amino acids) combine to form complex organic Re: molecules (proteins), chance that complex organic molecules (proteins) Re: combine to form DNA. Remember, when combining probabilities you multiply Re: the chances together, not add. Re: Re: Regarding amino acids, about half of the 20 amino acids required for life Re: have been re-created in laboratories. But, there are problems with the Re: methods employed to create them, and the usefulness of the end products. Re: These problems (which I will list if necessary) preclude the assumption that Re: these amino acids could be produced naturally, or be of any use to continue Re: the process of successfully (yet randomly) combining together to form Re: proteins. A small protein may have 100 amino acids linked together, but Re: they have to be in a certain order to be useful. And proteins do not Re: willingly combine together on their own. They are manufactured naturally Re: inside cells by information contained in the DNA of the cell, with RNA Re: actually carrying the load to the cell workstations where the proteins are Re: manufactured by combining amino acids in the proper sequence. DNA is Re: obviously a very complex protein in and of itself, so if it carries Re: information to make the proteins, what made it? Answer: it happened by Re: chance. We are to believe that the most complex protein came together by Re: chance with the job of then making simple proteins. It's the cart before Re: the horse, chicken and egg thing on a molecular basis. Actually, DNA, RNA, Re: and the workhorses within a cell would have all had to come together by Re: chance simultaneously for anything to work! Cells are not the lumps of Re: protoplasm that Darwin thought. Instead, they are miracles of Re: micro-machinery that can only function as a complete unit, where the Re: components alone are not useful. The warm pond of prebiotic soup is a dead Re: theory. Re: Re: The next step is to go from the chance formation of DNA to the simplest Re: genome in an organism made up of about 482 genes, or 500,000 base pairs. Re: I'll save that leap of faith for another discussion. Re: Re: -Jody Re: Re: Re: ----- Original Message ----- Re: From: "Brian Ahmer" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: To: <email@example.com> Re: Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:20 PM Re: Subject: Re: discussion Re: Re: Re: > I want everyone to know that I haven't been offended by anybody's Re: > remarks and I hope I haven't offended anyone either. (Although I Re: > probably could've phrased things nicer!) I respect jody, zack's, and Re: > everyone else's opinion and I've actually taken the discussion off Re: > list. As with some other people, one or two of my emails never got Re: > through and it's probably better that way. If another email pops up Re: > from me on the subject, note the time stamp because it's probably an Re: > old one, and it doesn't mean I'm still going. Re: > Re: > I just truly think people evolved and cave men invented gods. With Re: > this belief, it is hard to watch the world blow each other up over Re: > religious issues. And if I'm right about this stuff, it would be Re: > almost criminal to not try to at least open a discussion on it. It Re: > would be like watching somebody get mugged and not stopping to help. Re: > I guess the bad side is that it really does piss some people off to Re: > hear such "blasphemy" (oh my!). Feel free to contact me off list if Re: > you want to continue the discussion. Re: > -- Re: > Sincerely, Re: > Brian Ahmer, Ph.D. Re: > Re: > ============================================ Re: > Assistant Professor Re: > Department of Microbiology Re: > The Ohio State University Re: > 376 Bioscience Building Re: > 484 West 12th Ave Re: > Columbus OH 43210 Re: > Re: > 614-292-1919 Re: > firstname.lastname@example.org Re: > http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~microbio/ba.html Re: > ============================================ Re: > Re: > Re: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: > This is the apistogramma mailing list, email@example.com. Re: > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, Re: > email firstname.lastname@example.org. Re: > Re: Re: Re: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: This is the apistogramma mailing list, email@example.com. Re: For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, Re: email firstname.lastname@example.org. Re: -- C:-)lin They said "Smile, things could be worse." So I smiled, and sure enough... _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, email@example.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email firstname.lastname@example.org.