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Re: discussion

I had promised myself that I wouldn't continue this argument but then I read this and thought that there IS clear evidence for evolution, not in the fossil record, but in our current world.
Have a look at AIDS, it is so bad at reproducing itself that it evolves phenomenally quickly, so quickly in fact, that our scientists can't keep up with it. Same with the common cold and many others. Read "Almost Like a Whale" and it'll continue with the topic.
No more from me on this.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jody" <fishbox@bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:33:59 -0600
To:  <apisto@listbox.com>
Subject: Re: discussion

Re: Actually, this discussion has been rather tame so far (let's keep it that
Re: way).  If you want to see some raunchy behavior, just go over to the
Re: talkorigins newsgroup.
Re: The gripe I have is that evolution is taught as fact, when in actuality
Re: there are so many holes in the theory that it just doesn't adhere well
Re: together.  The shortcomings of the theory are never taught to the students,
Re: and therefore, they are not allowed to come to their own conclusions.
Re: Documentaries abound on TV showing men dressed in ape suits that are
Re: supposed to convince the watcher that the whole thing is true.  But, you may
Re: say, what about all those ape fossils?  Henry Gee, chief science writer for
Re: Nature (and an evolutionist), has pointed out that all the evidence for
Re: human evolution between about 10 and 5 million years ago "can be fit into a
Re: small box." According to Gee, the conventional picture of human evolution as
Re: lines of ancestry and descent is "a completely human invention created after
Re: the fact, shaped to accord with human prejudices." Putting it even more
Re: bluntly, Gee wrote in 1999: "To take a line of fossils and claim that they
Re: represent a lineage is not a scientific hypothesis that can be tested, but
Re: an assertion that carries the same validity as a bedtime story - amusing,
Re: perhaps even instructive, but not scientific."  I realize that this
Re: statement by Gee does not end the argument, but it summarizes the point that
Re: the fossils alone don't prove anything, especially when there are so few.
Re: And he is an evolutionist!
Re: The ape-to-man problem is at the end of the evolutionary tree, but there is
Re: bigger problem at the beginning of it - the origin of life.  Although he is
Re: a microbiologist and not a molecular biologist, I'm sure Brian is familiar
Re: with the issues.  Basically, the whole process depends on chance.  Chance
Re: that simple molecules combine to form complex molecules, chance that complex
Re: molecules combine to form simple organic molecules (amino acids), chance
Re: that simple organic molecules (amino acids) combine to form complex organic
Re: molecules (proteins), chance that complex organic molecules (proteins)
Re: combine to form DNA.  Remember, when combining probabilities you multiply
Re: the chances together, not add.
Re: Regarding amino acids, about half of the 20 amino acids required for life
Re: have been re-created in laboratories.  But, there are problems with the
Re: methods employed to create them, and the usefulness of the end products.
Re: These problems (which I will list if necessary) preclude the assumption that
Re: these amino acids could be produced naturally, or be of any use to continue
Re: the process of successfully (yet randomly) combining together to form
Re: proteins.  A small protein may have 100 amino acids linked together, but
Re: they have to be in a certain order to be useful.  And proteins do not
Re: willingly combine together on their own.  They are manufactured naturally
Re: inside cells by information contained in the DNA of the cell, with RNA
Re: actually carrying the load to the cell workstations where the proteins are
Re: manufactured by combining amino acids in the proper sequence.  DNA is
Re: obviously a very complex protein in and of itself, so if it carries
Re: information to make the proteins, what made it?  Answer:  it happened by
Re: chance.  We are to believe that the most complex protein came together by
Re: chance with the job of then making simple proteins.  It's the cart before
Re: the horse, chicken and egg thing on a molecular basis.  Actually, DNA, RNA,
Re: and the workhorses within a cell would have all had to come together by
Re: chance simultaneously for anything to work!  Cells are not the lumps of
Re: protoplasm that Darwin thought.  Instead, they are miracles of
Re: micro-machinery that can only function as a complete unit, where the
Re: components alone are not useful.  The warm pond of prebiotic soup is a dead
Re: theory.
Re: The next step is to go from the chance formation of DNA to the simplest
Re: genome in an organism made up of about 482 genes, or 500,000 base pairs.
Re: I'll save that leap of faith for another discussion.
Re: -Jody
Re: ----- Original Message -----
Re: From: "Brian Ahmer" <ahmer.1@osu.edu>
Re: To: <apisto@listbox.com>
Re: Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:20 PM
Re: Subject: Re: discussion
Re: > I want everyone to know that I haven't been offended by anybody's
Re: > remarks and I hope I haven't offended anyone either.  (Although I
Re: > probably could've phrased things nicer!)  I respect jody, zack's, and
Re: > everyone else's opinion and I've actually taken the discussion off
Re: > list.  As with some other people, one or two of my emails never got
Re: > through and it's probably better that way.  If another email pops up
Re: > from me on the subject, note the time stamp because it's probably an
Re: > old one, and it doesn't mean I'm still going.
Re: >
Re: > I just truly think people evolved and cave men invented gods.  With
Re: > this belief, it is hard to watch the world blow each other up over
Re: > religious issues.  And if I'm right about this stuff, it would be
Re: > almost criminal to not try to at least open a discussion on it.  It
Re: > would be like watching somebody get mugged and not stopping to help.
Re: > I guess the bad side is that it really does piss some people off to
Re: > hear such "blasphemy" (oh my!).  Feel free to contact me off list if
Re: > you want to continue the discussion.
Re: > --
Re: > Sincerely,
Re: > Brian Ahmer, Ph.D.
Re: >
Re: > ============================================
Re: > Assistant Professor
Re: > Department of Microbiology
Re: > The Ohio State University
Re: > 376 Bioscience Building
Re: > 484 West 12th Ave
Re: > Columbus OH 43210
Re: >
Re: > 614-292-1919
Re: > ahmer.1@osu.edu
Re: > http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~microbio/ba.html
Re: > ============================================
Re: >
Re: >
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They said "Smile, things could be worse." So I smiled, and sure enough...

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