The fact that I ordered them as norberti really doesn't mean much in this case. I got them from a wholesaler who is completely unreliable in their IDing. Let's just say that every Apisto on their list can be considered a mixed box. In the box that the "moae" came in, there were a few different fish, not one of which even resembled norberti remotely. That said, I could have been wrong on that account. I was left to try to match them as closely as possible since they were obviously not norberti. They were decent size, but not fully matured, so I was missing something with them. On the other hand, if Linke & Staeck's book was correct in their photo ID, then I have very little doubt that I had moae at another point. Before I brought in the "norberti" box, I picked up a pair at a local fish shop, A World of Fish. They were the only pair in the tank, and they were labeled as something else, which they didn't even resemble. I picked them up since Apistos aren't easy to come by here, and I got a deal. They were already good size, and the male was nearly colored up up/finned out. After several weeks I decided to find out what my fish were. After searching through books and on the net, I found the photo in the American Cichlids I. That picture could have been of my male. All of the darker markings, finnage, and secondary characteristics (colors and stuff) matched. I counted bands, markings and shapes and all that, and I couldn't find any differences. So I guess as I said if the the photo in that book is correct, then I'm pretty certain. It's also entirely possible these fish could have come from Germany, since AWOF gets most of their Apistos from over there. If they weren't moae, then I'd still like to know just what they were. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. apisto-digest@listbox.com also available. Web archives at http://lists.thekrib.com/apisto