Re: new aggie

[Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise@fgn.net>]

John Wubbolt wrote:

> Ok, I've sat by and watched this thread go... my turn to add fuel to the
> fire... or get burned..!!!

OK, Big J, here goes.

> Whos to say that different locations of a particular Aggie arent the
> same fish.... just because the first fish is from Rio X and the second
> one is from Rio Y.... why couldnt they be the same fish just different
> places....

You have a good point here. Right now no one can say for sure what is or is not
A. agassizii. The problem is that the distribution is so large that there are
many different forms. Genetic studies will certainly help indicate which forms
are more closely related, but unless we find major breaks I doubt that we can
answer this question to everyone's satisfaction.

> Now as for not crossing aquarium strains of aggies or even
> Cacatuoides.... hell i have no problems with that..... i've had some
> nice fish come out of crossing a double red aggie with an alenquer type
> aggie.... if and when i sell these fish at auctions, they are clearly
> labeled such that.... a cross of two types..... Aquarium strains are
> just that ...... aquarium strains.!!!!

I have no problem mixing populations for a good purpose. Haphazard mixing of
aggie forms, on the other hand, can certainly cause problems. Over many
generations this can lead to fish producing mixes of color forms if nothing
else. We won't be able to depend on getting anything similar to the parents
from such mongrels. In the future some of these populations will certainly turn
out to be different species (sort of like all the Malawi Zebras).

Your Alenquer x Double Red cross is a good example. The double reds are a
domestic strain developed from wild Peruvian red forms & who knows what.
Different populations and domestic strains were used & then line bred to
produce a pure strain. That's fine, but it doesn't make it a species. The wild
"Red Agassizii" do not match the holotype A. agassizii exactly in dark
markings, particularly in the caudal fin, so there is some question if it is
truly A. agassizii (although I think it probably is). Now from the area of
Alenquer, Brazil we get 3(!) forms of aggies: a typical A. agassizii with a
golden yellow body, a more gephyra-like form (A. cf. gephyra Alenquer) but with
a more elongated spade shaped caudal fin having a broad white submarginal band,
and a Net-Agassizii (A. cf. agassizii Alenquer) that shows net-like dark edging
around the blue & yellow scales on the flanks. The females all look similar
(surprised?). Are they all the same 'species'? Beats me, but I doubt it. They
all come from different locations & seem to breed true. Fortunately only A. cf.
agassizii Alenquer is commercially collected. Otherwise we might run into the
same problem we had with A. sp. Tefé being crossed with A. agassizii (Tefé).

So your double red x Alenquer are possibly a hybrid of at least 2 and probably
more sibling species. My question is, you say "some nice fish come out of
crossing a double red aggie with an alenquer type aggie". Only some? What do
you do with the not so nice fish? Do the 2nd & 3rd generations of these crosses
produce anything like the original cross?  If it does & it's good enough to
line breed and produce a set strain, then wonderful. Do it. But what happens
when we finally decide we have a hybrid? Those who want beautiful red aggies or
your cross won't care & will buy them. As long as they are recognized as such I
have no complaints. But is everyone as ethical as you? The ACA & similar
groups, however, might consider them hybrids & not worthy to be in their shows
or listing on sales lists. I remember judging an ACA show about 10 years ago.
The best of show award was going to a Malawi mbuna, but even after discussing
the fish with its owner we couldn't decide whether or not it was a cross. Can
you guess what we did? We gave best of show to the Neotropical winner. We never
told the mbuna owner what happened. How would you feel if you had the best
fish, but lost because it couldn't be proven to be a valid species?

I guess what I am afraid of most is that we will eventually have different
aggie populations that we can't depend on for producing the same fish.

> And from a LOOKS point of view... funny how that Rio Tigre aggie looks
> ALOT like my Alenquer strain does...... HMMmmmmmmmm!!

Strange, to me they were very different. The caudal pattern is different, one
is a Net-Agassizii and the other is a type agassizii. I think you are looking
at colors only & not the whole animal.

>
>
> Lt Chekov..... shields up!!!!!   Red Alert..!!

Don't worry, Fasers are only on stun ;-)

Mike (the purist) Wise

>
>
> John
>
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