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RE: small fish
Much of this discussion goes back to the 1960's, both in the hobby as well
as the science. And it's all related stuff: genetics, food, water changing,
etc.
Growth Inhibiting Substances are probably more generated by males than
females--I'm not aware of any specific studies which indicate this, but it
seems logical--and affects conspecifics from fry to tankmates. And probably
has an effect on female attraction as well. Just look at butterflies as they
attract their mates with 'hormones'.
Sub-males are that way for purposes of camouflage as well as nefarious
purposes (breeding), while fry are trying to grow--but if papa doesn't want
competition from another male, why not excrete something that warns others
(males) and also has an effect on fry?
With enough water changes, size equality can be had with conspecific males,
and almost the same coloration--but behaviour and getting beat up by the
alpha male may keep them subdued and not in quite the best of color.
But additionally, the quantity and quality of food is significant as
well--as is the size of the food. The better the food (live, frozen, flake
(in that order)) and better the protein (worms of various sorts, 'meat',
brine shrimp) or better vegetation (for those that it that sort of stuff),
fed more often, and coupled with adequate water changes will produce, as has
been demonstrated in various experiments/tests, a faster growth rate. It was
almost inconsequential whether it was with parents, a parent, or alone for a
number of the tests (livebearers and cichlids and another group I don't
recall). One of the caveats to this is that while worms may have more
protein, fry are unable to eat them, so bbs, which may be 'less' in protein
will substitute--but once the fry get bigger, they can handle the higher
'rated' protein and will show their growth spurts as a result.
On a high protein rate, a multiple (frequent) feeding schedule, and adequate
water changes will make a difference in any regime.
> ----------
> From: Randy or Deb Carey[SMTP:carey@spacestar.net]
> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 5:18 AM
> To: apisto@majordomo.pobox.com
> Subject: Re: small fish
>
> I certainly have this problem from time to time. (I never sell these
> unless at a
> big discount and I inform the buyer.)
>
> I have wondered about the causes: small tank, too infrequent water
> changes,
> under-estimating the amount of food to feed, hormones from adult fish.
>
> From what I'm hearing from you guys is that you are giving ample space (60
> and
> 125 gallon tanks!). Were the young fish always in the large tanks, or did
> you
> transfer them after 3, 4 months (once their growth had already slowed)?
> I'm
> assuming that if once the young fish have not had optimal growing
> conditions in
> their first few months, they will never be able to make up that missed
> growth.
>
> As for feeding, I realized that if I need one squirt of bbs when they are
> at a
> certain size, they may need 8 times that once they double in size (double
> in
> length, width, and height... or two cubed). So I've wondered if some of
> our
> problems stem from underestimating how much food to feed a clutch of 40 to
> 80
> fry. Or, as Kathy's comments points out, the young fish are too shy or
> non-aggressive to eat to their fill.
>
> As for hormones, this is just a wild guess. I think fry tend to grow
> faster if I
> leave them with their mom. Does she provide some hormone of other benefit
> to her
> fry? Conversely, I've seen young kept in the tank with Dad and not grow
> as much
> as they should. Could he be giving off a hormone that stunts the growth
> of
> future competitors? If so, it would only be potent enough if the number
> of adult
> fish saturated the given amount of stagnant water. This is just a guess.
>
> In short, I, too, have had broods that never seem to grow out to their
> parent's
> size. Someday, someone should experiment. He/She could split up a brood,
> place
> them in three or four different tanks, and subject each tank to different
> forces: higher fish density, higher food availability, one group kept
> with Mom,
> etc. Then measure the growth in each tank after 3 or 4 months. Think of
> what we
> all might learn from such an experiment!
>
> --Randy
>
>
> > On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Mike Jacobs wrote:
> >
> > > Eric Olsen said:
> > >
> > > >We've spawned borellii, but
> > > >the fry are still tiny even after almost a year.
> > >
> > > ..........I experienced the same thing that Eric
> > > did with the borellii.....SMALL babies after a year. Folks these
> aren't
> > > in a 10 gallon. They are in a 125 gallon and get feed 2-3 times a day
> > > with live bbs and live black wor[m]s. Two of the batches grew just
> fine
> > > and were quite the studs.....<snip>
> > >
> > > Mike
>
>
>
> > kathy@thekrib.com wrote:
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > Ours were in a 60 with other apisto fry I was raising. They tend to be
> > shyer and more fragile than the others. I was wondering if to
> effectively
> > raise these guys I would have to dedicate a tank only to them, they
> don't
> > seem like a very competative apisto.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Kathy
> >
>
>
>
>
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