I don't know about other breeders but I croos the wild stuff into my line about every other generation. I have a 'domestic' line and a 'wild' line going. I have not seen any breeding problems in my fish but I do alot of backcrossing to the wild form to keep the vitality. I agree with you in many ways but at the same time I think it is important that we do make progress and develope the more colorful varieties as to not fall behind the rest of the world. I have a friend of mine Kent, who is on this list, That has a very nice strain of A.enoutus that he is working with that have very nice red caudel fins. I beleive we need to further such work. It will only help us in the long run as they become more appealing to the rest of the aquarium trade and help promote Apisto's even more. If done correctly with the proper handle on genetics we can have some great color varieties 'fixed' and even develope and improve some new ones. The German fish I have dealt with all raise their fry and I have not noticed any deformed fry. Honestly I have thought like you for in regards to tank raised strains but the German fish i have dealt with are of excellent quality. Again my preference is for the wild forms but I have seen the kind of fish the Germans have and I can say they are excellent and I think we should all follow the example. Indeed many of us are and I surely am. I know for example Steve Rybecky of Angels Plus has built himself a very good reputation with his Angels by crossing his domestic strains with the wild stuff to keep his lines strong. I for one have been breeding the wild varieties of Apisto's for the most part and every outstanding fish I find from a shipment I cross into my lines. This kind of work will help us 'fix' certain things we like in our fish and improve on what we have. I beleive we have to have a balance between the two though and as long as we back cross we will have healthy strains. I want to preserve the wild stuff and for the most part improve on what we have. Good luck with the rams, My wild ones are better looking then any 'German' ram I have ever seen. The good quality of the german ram is that they hold their color better under adverse condition, like in a wholesalers tank. I am working with two strains there as well a wild strain and a 'German'x'wild' strain that I am looking to improve. Good luck with the Rams Vern. - === David Sanchez Casselberry, FL http://www.mindspring.com/~barbax barbax2@yahoo.com _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!