Hello Bob I have 2 pairs of Panduro's. They seem to have a mind of their own, in other words they don't always want to appear like the book says they should look. Very often my males lose the triangle black mark at the caudal peduncle. When they want to spawn it reappears. Also my females are always yellow and don't always have the black blotch on the belly. That appears to come and go with mood. The closer they come to spawning the more intense the black markings become with the yellow being really bright yellow then too. As for a pH of 7.4 that does sound high and is probably why your pair that spawned didn't have viable eggs. I keep my pairs in a pH of around 6.5 and this works really well for me. Even Nijsenni which many people say need really acidic water spawn and do well for me in a pH of 6.5. My hardness in my water is between 50 to 60 ppm. I don't use an R/O unit because of naturally soft water, but most of my apistos find this to be fine. The only fish that I think I really need to play with my water for is my Dicrossus Maculatus. They pH in the tank when they spawned was around 6.8 and I think that's why the eggs fungused up for me. Other then those guys all of my apistos have spawned for me in tap water with viable fry from each of them. I would try lowering the pH in your tank and see if that brings you any different results. Oh and by the way, many times I have smaller males spawning with bigger females. I guess size doesn't matter for apistos. John ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!