Folks, I am really glad this thread of spawning behavior has held up and the "flames" of hell have been avoided. This is the kind of discussion that we should feel free to have.....a discussion of experiences. The last time this topic was tried....well! Can I get in here a bit. Most of you know which side I'm on here...doesn't make me right, just my experiences...I don't believe we have created angels and other fish that won't raise their fry or apisto's that won't raise their fry. I don't think we can undo 10000000000000 years of natural selection and habits in 3-4-5 generations of in breeding. The question is, I think, do we know REALLY what these little buggers are like in the wild? Oh we have guesses, there is undoubtedly a great deal of parental care but really how much??? I've talked at length with 5 people personally, and at length, who have been to ALL parts of the Amazon basin collecting apisto and etc. and not a one of those guys ever saw a female or a FEMALE AND MALE with a bunch of young (I didn't say it doesn't happen). I know that there are good times to go collecting ....the rainy season and all of that...but I think there are too many unanswered questions to assume we know all of the answers about apisto parental behavior because we watched them in an aquarium......we can only talk of our experiences......not talk about who is WRONG! Maybe none of us are WRONG or entirely right...including me (I can only talk of my experiences) but to generalize my experience as the only fact there must be is a bit out of line I think. One thing for sure however...when they find these apistos generally they find a bunch of them in the leaf litter evidently. It's been described to me as "...in one SQUARE foot of leave litter there may be 40-50 apistos. Thus you have heard the famous story of David Soares' tank of apistos...a 55 gallon with some 150-175 cacatuoides in there...it's true, and I would dare say that not a whole bunch of us have tried to sit and watch the dynamics of a tank like that! So I took a part of that thinking and put it to this .......small, but effective so far.... experiment. Vinny Kutty gave me about 30-40 pair of VERY YOUNG wild (F0) A. agassizii he had caught and brought back......emphasis F0's (this was my opportunity). I took most of them to our club and auctioned them off as I was directed but I ended up "cherry" picking about 5-6 males and about 8-9 females and the ALL ended up in a 20 gallon long...a 20 gall long (crowded tank) with enough PVC tubes and PVC couplings to choke a horse (hiding places...all fish were reasonably comfortable...tension but comfortable). That tank is probably the most interesting tank I have to simply sit and watch the interaction. But when the sizes got a little larger (you couldn't sex them when Vinny first brought them...they were really young) and their first spawnings began, all kinds of things happened. Some spawns were good, some spawns were eaten some spawns just never hatched some spawns ended up with 2-3 young that eventually became mature and some hatches the female was good enough to actually get 20-25 of those young to 5-6 weeks until I pulled them. All of this spawning behavior happened at the same time in the SAME water conditions. Water quality CERTAINLY has a lot to do with trying to spawn these nifty apistos, and we must strive to get the best water quality we can to these fish to even try to observe "normal" behavior but let's don't be too sure we know all of the other action or reactions of these fish...behaviors. ONLY through giving our experiences and LISTENING and INTERACTING to others experiences will we eventually really learn someday the real trick....OK Flame away, tell me again I am wrong. I'm sorry I got so wound up, but these types of conversations should be able to happen without fear of someone telling someone else they are wrong...it tend to stifle a conversation. Hey.........everyone have a great day. And by the way...at the next ACA convention, lets have a "FOR REAL APISTO DISCUSSION". I know a bunch of you were their but I only recognized and met Bob Dixon and Julio Melgar. Even if we only just meet informally somewhere..........what do you think! Mike Mike Jacobs Center for Advanced Technologies Lakewood H.S. St Pete, Fl 33705 email@example.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, firstname.lastname@example.org. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email email@example.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!