Reading this thread with great interest, and figured add my .02 cents worth. Angels first,, I got 4 super veil tail gold morph angels, at about 2 1/2 inch body diameter, from my friendly fish shop. Put them into a 20 gallon, heavily planted tank till they started to push each other around. 2 started to become great friends and double teamed the other two. A Pair!! I exclaimed, and moved them into a 15 gallon heavily planted tank for themselves. Both tanks running my typical apisto water with ph about 6.4 to 6.6 and 50ppm. Well, I musta had the fishy gods smiling on me, cause I ended up with 2 mated pairs. First pair that I moved to the 15 gallon, ended up spawning about 2 weeks later, first spawn, and did great. They now have a whole pile of fat little angel babies just starting to look like mom and dad, (at least 150 of them), all swarming around their tank, and the whole family are happy campers. The second pair remained in the 20 gallon tank, and ended up spawning about 2 weeks after the first pair. These 2 filled 3 leaves on a amazon sword with eggs, and didn't do a very good job. Most eggs weren't fertilized and turned into fuzz leaves. But Mom and Dad, watched the fuzzy mess, and picked out afew fry that hatched out, and moved them to a pre cleaned leaf. They fussed over these 20 or so fry, and took great care of them until the fry went freeswimming. Then they munched them. They spawned about 3 weeks later, same gig, few eggs fertilized, and picked the fry out of the mess. This time, about 3 times as many fry. But same deal again, fussed about them till fry wanna go swimming, then munch. Today, they are cleaning leaves again, and will spawn, probably this weekend. Wonder how they will do this time. My Cacatuoides, are interesting. Some mothers the very first spawn, raise the fry, no problems, and would live with them forever, if it came to be. Other mothers, do great with wrigglers, and move them 2 or three times from pot to pot until they go free swimming. Then they munch them. Other mothers, eat the eggs, before they even hatch. I find the munchers, though after this first spawn do better the next spawn. Sometimes they take 3 or 4 spawns to get it right. Maybe it's a experience thing, and the more timid the mother is, the more likely she is to munch her young. I generally find the mothers who are very calm and will come out to see me make better mothers. If my fish beg at the surface when they see me they always raise their babies. I have been noticing this more and more. The more uptight the female is, the more likely she will munch her offspring. I just thought I'd add this to the thread, OHHH guess what???!!! I am getting a colony of Lamprologus Multifasciatus, given to me from my good friend, who gave me all the Apistos, when I started out 3 years, ago. I am starting to buffer the water in a 10 gallon tank this weekend. The tank tested at 6.4 yesterday,, long way to go to 8.5. Using Tanganyika buffer stuff from Seachem, should be interesting to see if I can get a stable PH of 8.5 happening. Going to fish stores around here this weekend for dead snails, for the shells. I kinda fear this experiment a bit,, I have no room for any more tanks,, looking at furniture, now (hmm,, do i really need a couch??)(ummm,, a bed???),, uhhhohhhhhhhh!!! ohhhhhnoooooooo!!!! Vicky the Cichlididiot ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, email@example.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email firstname.lastname@example.org. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!