RE: [AGA-Member] Co2 problems!

["Adam Michels" <amichels@trafficleader.com>]

I'm familiar with the CO2 chart. Since then I added more CO2 to lower
the pH, so I looked good on the chart. 6-10 ppm doesn't cut it, but I
had to add baking soda to improve my KH, which raised my pH. 
People in my town have complained that they've seen snails' shells
deteriorating because the water's so soft. Not that I care about the
snails, dreadful creatures. My water was so soft my fish didn't even
have to swim. They just floated around like astronauts in zero gravity!
The bubbles are another story. I'm running an Eheim canister and have
little surface agitation, so I'm not losing a lot of CO2. But I don't
think the ladder diffuses it as well as other products out there. I'm
still playing around with how much CO2 my plants will absorb and still
maintain normal water conditions (for me pH 6.8, CO2 24ppm, KH 5 is
ideal). I think they need more than 1-2 bubbles per second, using the
ladder. Will a power reactor diffuser require as much CO2 to do the same
job or better?
Thanks Paul
Adam
 

-----Original Message-----
From: aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com
[mailto:aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com] On Behalf Of Paul M Wallace
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 2:06 PM
To: Aquatic Gardeners Association Member Chat
Subject: RE: [AGA-Member] Co2 problems!

Adam:

OK, there is an interplay between the addition of CO2 and the buffering
capacity of the water.  This is the Chucks CO2 Chart that can be found
elsewhere:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14103
The going theory is that growth levels off at > 30 PPM so that is the
target of many.  If your KH is 5 and pH 7.5 you are about 6-10 ppm.

Bubbles per minute (BPM) is VERY subjective.  First, not all bubbles are
equal so it has happened that the rate is 3 BPM at the bubble counter
and 5 BPM at the reactor.  Second, BPM depends on the target CO2, tank
size, rate of CO2 loss...

So measure KH and pH and work back to your BPM.

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Adam Michels wrote:

> Yeah, once I got my KH up, my pH went up as well, to about 7.5
(morning
> reading), which is also about the same pH as my tap water. Maybe the
> baking soda had a buffering effect, but I figured I needed more CO2 to
> get the pH back down. I think the plants in this tank will appreciate
> the additional CO2 the diffuser will provide. Plus, I don't think the
> ladder is diffusing the CO2 as well as I need it to. I'm running 2 96W
> 6700K and 6500K compact fluorescents (36" on a 48" tank [55g], I had
to
> make due with what I had), so the plants are getting blasted (almost 4
> wpg), especially in the middle of the tank. But even the Aponogetons
and
> Hygophilas in the back corners, where the light is not as intense, are
> growing fast.
> 	The tank is also new, 2-3 months, and I read somewhere, I think
> in Amano's first book, that new tanks often require more CO2 than
older
> ones because of less dissolved organics and anaerobic bacteria. Most
of
> the tanks in his Nature Aquarium World are as densely planted as can
be,
> yet he's running CO2 every five seconds. Is it because they're older?
>
> Adam
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com
> [mailto:aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com] On Behalf Of S. Hieber
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:32 PM
> To: Aquatic Gardeners Association Member Chat
> Subject: RE: [AGA-Member] Co2 problems!
>
> I had a 30 gal that maintained 20 ppm CO2 with only about 6
> bubbles per minute (I don't remember exactly but a 5 pound
> tank would last gop over a year and half between refills.
> On a 15, I'm running about the same amount to maintain the
> same levels.  On my 150g with a sump, I use many times more
> CO2. Each tank is diff. Bubbles can be a good guide once
> you know what CO2 levels you get on a given aquarium with a
> particular bubble rate, then that rate is a handy ersatz
> indicator of CO2 level.
>
>
>
> But you can't read too much into bubble count otherwise
> ;-)  What's a high rate on one aquarium might not be on
> another.
>
> If you watch the high side pressure on the CO2 tank, you
> can see the degree of impact of temperature change. How
> much diff that makes on the low pressure side depends in
> large part on the regulator.
>
> Five degrees KH is a nice amount if you need to boost KH
> when you add CO2.
>
> sh
>
>
> --- Adam Michels <amichels@trafficleader.com> wrote:
>
>> The same guy at my LFS said that I'd only need 1 bubble
>> every 5-10
>> seconds (on a 55, and my tank is stocked)! I'm now
>> running 1 bubble
>> every 1-2 seconds, because that's all my ladder can
>> handle, which he
>> also said was sufficient. I also had to boost my KH up to
>> 5 (90ppm) with
>> sodium bicarbonate, because the water in Eugene, OR is
>> super soft
>> (18ppm). Before that my plants wouldn't pearl. Now they
>> do
>> intermittently, but I know they're sucking up that CO2
>> because my PH
>> rises to 7.2-7.4 late in the day. Some of my species are
>> pretty
>> demanding, and I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of a
>> power reactor
>> diffuser with the RIO 50. I'm new to advanced aquatic
>> gardening, however
>> I've been into discus and low-light plants for a while
>> now, and I'm
>> still in the process of fine-tuning this tank. All of
>> your information
>> is really helpful. Thanks,
>> 	And now that you mention it, the guy running 3 PSI and
>> ladders
>> has hair algae in his tanks and can't get his plants to
>> pearl. Scott's
>> idea about weather affecting the CO2 flow rate is also
>> curious. It has
>> gotten colder out here recently. Hum.
>> Adam
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com
>> [mailto:aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com] On Behalf Of S.
>> Hieber
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:27 AM
>> To: Aquatic Gardeners Association Member Chat
>> Subject: RE: [AGA-Member] Co2 problems!
>>
>> I usually run between 10-30 psi on the regulator output
>> --
>> each system have somewhat diff demands due to diff
>> conditions or  equipment.
>>
>> I can't imagine a stable system at 3 psi, although I'ms
>> sure someone has done it. But at that pressure, it would
>> be
>> difficult to have a needlevalve offer much control over
>> the
>> flow, every slight change in pressure will change the
>> flow.
>>
>>
>> Scott H., who realizes that for everything that almost no
>> one does, there is at least one person that pulls it off.
>>
>> --- Adam Michels <amichels@trafficleader.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, this is good stuff. I've noticed the same problem
>>> recently, and I
>>> was told to run my CO2 at 3 PSI! When I get home I'm
>>> kicking it up to
>>> 10. Thanks
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com
>>> [mailto:aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com] On Behalf Of
>> Paul
>>> M Wallace
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 10:56 AM
>>> To: Aquatic Gardeners Association Member Chat
>>> Subject: Re: [AGA-Member] Co2 problems!
>>>
>>> I have read of other users reporting or eratic
>>> performance due to A) the
>>> low pressure side too low (some need to run ~30PSI, I
>> run
>>> ~10) and B)
>>> metal shavings in the needle valve to other problems
>> like
>>> reported below
>>> that were solved by a cleaning/service.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Paul
>>>
>>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 matpat89@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hey Matt,
>>> >
>>> > I had a similar problem with a JBJ regulator.  There
>>> was a gasket that
>>> went
>>> > between the bubble counter and needle valve.  While
>>> filling the bubble
>>> counter,
>>> > this gasket fell off.  My bubble count was eratic
>> just
>>> like yours and
>>> required
>>> > me to turn it up every day for about a week.  Once I
>>> figured out the
>>> gasket had
>>> > fallen off and I put it back where it should be,
>> things
>>> were fine.  I
>>> recently
>>> > set up a three way splitter on one of my regulators.
>>> Three bubble
>>> counters (JBJ
>>> > brand) were included with the splitter.  Not a single
>>> bubble counter
>>> had a
>>> > gasket included with it.  I mamaged to get some
>> gaskets
>>> that fit
>>> between the
>>> > bubble counter and needle valve and they all work
>> fine
>>> now.  I'd check
>>> to see
>>> > if your gasket is missing.  The CO2 will choose the
>>> path of least
>>> resistance
>>> > and come our of the bubble counter versus pushing
>>> through the tubing
>>> and into a
>>> > reactor or diffusor.
>>> >
>>> > Matt
>>> > South Western Ohio Aquatic Plant Enthusiasts member
>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "matt scarnecchia"
>>> <colonel594@hotmail.com>
>>> > To: <aga-member@thekrib.com>
>>> > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:36 PM
>>> > Subject: [AGA-Member] Co2 problems!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> Hello all, My name is Matt and Im fairly new to this
>>> orginazation but
>>> it is
>>> >> a pleasure to find and be a part of it. I'm having a
>>> problem with my
>>> newly
>>> >> set up pressurized co2 system. A few weeks ago I
>>> ordered a AZOO
>>> pressure
>>> >> regulator with magnetic valve, and needle valve.
>> After
>>> it arrived I
>>> went to
>>> >> a local welding supply house and picked up a 5 lb.
>> co2
>>> tank went home
>>> and
>>> >> set it all up. I adjusted the co2 flow to the
>> desired
>>> amount and all
>>> seemed
>>> >> to be working great and continued to work so for
>> about
>>> a week or so.
>>> >>      Any way about a week later i was observing
>> things
>>> and noticed
>>> that the
>>> >> amount of pearling in the aquarium had decreased so
>> i
>>> checked over
>>> some
>>> >> things to find out that the problem appeared to be
>>> that less co2 was
>>> being
>>> >> released from the regulator. So i checked things out
>>> there were no
>>> leaks, my
>>> >> check valve on the air line tubing is working fine
>> but
>>> still for some
>>> reason
>>> >> a lesser amount of gas being released.
>>> >>     Not knowing what the problem could be i adjusted
>>> the needle valve
>>>
>>> >> opening it a bit more to get the desired bubble flow
>>> (around 3
>>> bubbles a
>>> >> second or so) and it continued to work fine for the
>>> rest of the day.
>>> At
>>> >> night the lights shut off and so does the timer for
>>> the co2 valve,
>>> and in
>>> >> the morning it comes back on with the lights. So i
>>> figured I better
>>> check
>>> >> things out to make sure it was still working
>> properly
>>> only to find
>>> that the
>>> >> flow rate had slowed down again to almost
>> nothing....
>>> maybe about 1
>>> bubble
>>> >> about ever 5 to 10 seconds. Not my desired level.
>>> Baffled by what
>>> appeared
>>> >> to be happening over night I checked ever thing over
>>> again looking
>>> for leaks
>>> >> making sure all was hook up tightly with still the
>>> slow flow I went
>>> ahead
>>> >> and opened the needle valve further back to the
>>> desired flow rate and
>>> once
>>> >> again things worked fine for the rest of the day. at
>>> night everything
>>> shut
>>> >> off, and in the morning when it all came back on I
>>> checked things out
>>> to see
>>> >> what was going on.... with the same result as the
>> day
>>> before.... for
>>> some
>>> >> unknown reason the flow rate has slowed to almost
>>> nothing at all. I
>>> cant
>>> >> figure out what would be causing this? has anyone
>> else
>>> ever had any
>>> problems
>>> >> similar to this? or have any idea at all what could
>> be
>>> causing this
>>> strang
>>> >> decrease in my flow rate after the magnetic valve
>>> shuts off and then
>>> comes
>>> >> back on in the morning?
>>> >>     From what I under stand I should be able to set
>>> the needle valve
>>> to a
>>> >> desired rate of flow, and every time that the
>> magnetic
>>> valve opens
>>> again it
>>> >> should resum at that flow rate making it all fine to
>>> be left alone
>>> every day
>>> >> until the tank needs refilled..... and I cant figure
>>> out why things
>>> would be
>>> >> acting in the way that they are..... Any help at all
>>> that could be
>>> offered
>>> >> would be GREATLY appriciated..... I am fianally
>>> getting things with
>>> this
>>> >> aquarium to a point that I am really pleased with it
>>> all.... but this
>>> has
>>> >> been testing and rather frustrating to say the
>>> least.... espically
>>> after
>>> >> spending a very nice sized piece of change on this
>>> equipment to get
>>> the
>>> >> desired co2 levels i wanted in my tank with out
>> having
>>> to do daily
>>> maintance
>>> >> to achive it..... thanks a lot for any help you can
>>> all give me!
>>> >>    Sincerely,
>>> >>         Matt Scarnecchia
>>> >>          Youngstown, Ohio
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>
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>
> Have registered for the Contest? Uploaded your photos?
> Sent in the Photo Release Form?
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>
>
> Share the fun and show your work!
>
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